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# Re: Doubts about the path

#### Message 02033 of 3835

- To: BardonPraxis@yahoogroups.com
- Subject: Re: Doubts about the path
- From: "loumade_1999" <loumade_1999@...>
- Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 06:49:35 -0000
- In-reply-to: <bt1c7b+fqvd@eGroups.com>
- User-agent: eGroups-EW/0.82

    --- In BardonPraxis@yahoogroups.com, "David Yeh" <ldreamr@y...> wrote:
    > I have a number of questions I would like to put forward to you
    all,
    > particularly the experienced practitioners like Rawn. Your
    feedback
    > and guidance would be very welcome.
    >
    > I am feeling some basic doubts with regards to the Hermetic path.
    >
    > First of all, it seems to me that Bardon gave a sort of bare-bones
    > outline in IIH of what is needed to achieve each step. But what
    > about the particulars of the technique or instruction? The
    language
    > he uses in the Step One exercise about vacancy of mind, for
    instance,
    > is very forceful, i.e. suppress your thoughts. But what I've
    > gathered, particularly from exploring writings of systems such as
    > Buddhism that really focus on the natural emptiness of mind, is
    that
    > you can't really fight the mind. You have to let go and be
    mindful,
    > or you have to "love your ego to death" or something like that. So
    > right there is one thing where I think, "Hmm, I can't quite trust
    > Bardon." If I start to distrust Bardon in Step One, what does that
    > mean for the rest of the course?

    Buddhism is one of those interesting philosophies that has had many
    revisions on top of it that coincide with the original laws, not
    changing them, but illucidating them further and further. The same
    goes for Kabbalah with it's eight periods. Each not changing the
    original laws but illucidating further what has been said in the
    Torah.

    The main thing you should understand about the Buddhist philosophy is
    that the Four noble truths are a diagnosis of what goes on in life.
    Basically, attachment is suffering. The eightfold path is the
    prescription for that suffering (Right knowledge, intention and so on
    to right meditation). Just about all of the Sutras and the
    commentaries on the sutras are conceptualizations put into verse to
    teach others not to conceptualize. In conceptualization, we dualize
    and get further away from Nirvana. Or in Bardon terms, we get away
    from the Mystical where as magical is working with the will to
    penetrate further into the metaphysical. Mystical is quality, magic
    is quantity.

    Buddhism has its own heirarchy where there is a progression from the
    Hinayana (ethically based, somewhat antisocial with the enlightened
    arhat as the ideal and philosophically empirical) to the mahayana
    (Ideal person is the Bodhisattva, which is very social for the
    benefit of others, focusing on emptiness and philosophically
    rational) and finally, Vajrayana (taking and refining what is in the
    concepts of the mahayana and furthering the concept of emptiness so
    that there is no difference between nirvana or samsara. In
    otherwords, and more base terms, I am a pile of crap but I am
    enlightened and don't know it; there is a diamond in me and I have to
    find it.)

    What influences the Vajrayana, the higher aspect of Buddhism, are the
    practices of the earlier primitive shamanic tibetans (Bon Po) that
    did implement a very similar practice as that found in the IIH with
    the Soul Mirror exercise. Basically, we were made of elements, they
    cannot function independently and must be in balance for the body,
    soul, and spirit to progress further. The elements were applied in
    exactly the same method as was in IIH. The theory from the Buddhist
    perspective on this is that the higher beings were at an elemental
    equilibrium to such a fine degree that they were in a constant state
    of bliss.

    Naturally, if you meditate (in the eastern sense of the word where
    you let go and dont conceptualize) you will develop some of the
    powers that Bardon suggests. However, if you make these powers your
    focus, you deluded your ego, and these great powers fall further out
    of reach. Interesting failsafe. You develop abilities as you go on
    but if you focus on them you fall back.

    Unfortunatly, Bardon is VERY barebones. Vacancy of mind is written
    in only a few pages for IIH but Buddhism has attacked it quite a bit
    more.

    Quite Honestly, IIH is correct without much in the way of trying to
    back up what it is saying. All it is, is "do this and do this" no
    questions asked and so on. Buddhism has gone so far into the
    philosophy to mention "do this because of these reasons" with far
    exceeding explanations.

    There are many things in the Buddhist world that are mentioned in
    IIH. Some Monks do finger posterings where a certain postering would
    bring about a mental attitude. Meditating (focusing rather) for 4
    hours a day on certain aspects like patience. When that patience is
    fully grasped, the fingers take a posture, when the mind loses focus,
    the fingers come apart. So if the monk is losing patience, they can
    bring it back with their fingers.

    There are many secrets in the Monastic life that would preferably be
    kept secret. When the Dalai Llama goes around and speaks, RARELY
    does he ever talk about Dzogchen, but rather the basics of Buddhism
    of what is mentioned mostly in the Hinayana and some of the
    Mahayana. I am sure Bardon felt the same thing when revealing the
    secrets that he had for fear that people would misuse and
    misunderstand them.

    >
    > Further, Rawn mentions on his website that Bardon doesn't really
    > mention, except in a couple of sentences, that EOM is meant to be
    > practiced throughout the ten steps. It is implied. Well, what
    else
    > is implied that isn't set out in so many words? So how can I trust
    > it?

    Gone are the days when one would go to a guru and the guru would
    force the medication of reason down the persons throat to get them to
    understand even if they didn't want to. It would make my life
    easier, let me tell you.:-) In the beginning, with children, parents
    do and say things to get the children to do things for their own
    benefit even though the children don't even realize it. Like telling
    a child that there is candy outsideside to get the scared child out
    of a burning house. So, Trust me, when you work on the exercises in
    IIH, a HUGE amount of money will be found in your closet. hee hee

    Honestly, if you are having doubts about it and don't want to
    research it, then move onto something else that satisfies your soul.
    My hope is that if you do decide to pursue buddhism further, that you
    would keep a copy of IIH with you because it is very reflective of
    the whole path of Buddhism. At least, this is what I have found.
    There are similarities everywhere in all religions and philosophies,
    and bardon has been a great help to me. (my testimony)

    >
    > Moreover, what is the goal of the Hermetic path? In Buddhism it
    > seems that the goal is very simple: be enlightened. I am unsure
    what
    > the goal is in Hermetics. If it is self-transformation and
    mastery,
    > what is the purpose of developing all of those powers?
    I came to
    > Bardon while trying to explore the practice of astral projection
    and
    > needing more of a spiritual framework for it instead of doing it
    for
    > recreation. Now I flip ahead in IIH and encounter a multitude of
    > things that I will ostensibly be focusing my energy on, like magic
    > mirrors and rituals and mental wandering. To me they are very
    > tempting in terms of ego, though I know that supposedly by the time
    I
    > reach the stage where those things are possible, I will have
    attained
    > a degree of mastery that will eliminate that. Well what is the
    point
    > of the powers in the first place? Why not, as some Buddhists
    teach,
    > ignore all of it, because all phenomena are illusion, and place the
    > focus simply on being awake in the moment?

    Well, Buddhism, like the hermetic path of Bardon is an aspect of the
    perrenial philosophy. Basically, all of us will eventually acheive
    enlightenment in an incarnation somewhere along the road. This being
    said, many of the spiritual masters that bardon makes reference to
    come here to Earth as a buffed up version of a "Bodhisattva," they
    are here to help humanity. With there skills of magic, being that of
    focusing further into the metaphysical world, they can focus and
    understand better the mystical. They truly do go hand in hand (the
    magical and mystical).

    Buddhism teaches many things about the phenomenal world being that of
    illusion since it coincides with everything being empty of their own
    being to a form of understanding dependent origination. Since all
    things in this world are dependent on something else, they are empty
    of their own being because it belongs to something else. THat is why
    they say not to place much faith in phenomena. Madyamikans carry
    this degree of scrutiny towards reality to a high degree quite
    similar to Bishop Berkeley's view of the world existing only in the
    mind. Berkeley's treatise, as well as the Madyamikan's depends on a
    Being or G-D that perceives reality to keep it constant. It is also
    a good method to ignore all other things and focus on the pure here
    and now. For the Kaballist, that aspect of here and now is one
    translation for the term Keter. Being ready to BE in the moment that
    is NOW! Unfortunately, for a Kaballist, Buddhism tends to separate
    the aspects that are seen in the Tree of life, the triads, into
    different schools, Hinayana focused around malkuth and its adjoining
    triad, mahayana and the vajrayana taking up the rest of the tree
    respectively.

    Basically, Buddhism is so rich that it will take a long time to gain
    the understanding because it is so meaty. IIH is bare bones as you
    put it and is the very short, straight to the point path of what can
    be gained while delving into Buddhism. Again, I say, Buddhism is
    very meaty. I had a buddhist professor that said he had been
    studying it intently for over thirty years, and he said he was just
    finally starting to understand it. Hopefully that puts things into
    perspective that no matter what you decide to pursue as a path,
    practice and practicality will have to come first to understand it
    because the path is hard.

    (dont stop reading, I posted more lower)

    >
    > Also, there are lineages in Buddhism that are unbroken going back a
    > few thousand years. There are teachers around and available with
    > whom one can meditate and learn. Hermetics by comparison seems new
    > and obscure and perhaps immature? Where are the guides and the
    > wisdom teachings handed down over hundreds of years? Obviously I
    > don't know much about it but I would appreciate someone
    enlightening
    > me.
    >
    > One answer might be to practice Bardon and also seek out Buddhist
    > teachers to help with some concepts. But I think it is really hard
    > to have two teachers at one time. Something has got to give.
    >
    > I do think that part of it for me is the unfamiliar complexity.
    The
    > four elements, three bodies, the Hebrew words and Qabalistic terms
    > and talk of elementals that people bandy around. This is all very
    > new to me and somewhat overwhelming. I know that part of my doubt
    is
    > that I would rather retreat to something familiar. I take a look
    > inside the Kybalion and my mind starts to shut down from the sheer
    > overload of unfamiliar forms of information.
    >
    > But a part of me also wonders, isn't this unnecessarily complex? I
    > guess that would, again, depend on the goal. If the goal of
    > Theravadan Buddhism is simply enlightenment, then it is simple
    enough
    > to go live in a monastery and work on being mindful of everything
    > that arises in yourself. If the goal of Christianity is to feel
    > God's love, then one simply must open oneself to it. I hope
    someone
    > can tell me what Hermetics is about to them, because right now I
    > still have this idea in my head that magick is about power over
    > things in the world, rather than harmony with the world. That idea
    > is very attractive and, as such, I think, dangerous to me if what I
    > really seek is freedom. But I also know, from writings by Rawn and
    > William Mistele among others, that that's not necessarily the
    case ...
    >
    > I would like to say that MY goal is to live life fully, both by
    > removing the things in me that block my way to the Divine, and by
    > expressing myself and exploring the wonders and mysteries of the
    > world.
    >
    > So I'm begging for answers to my questions:
    > Isn't a path like Hermetics, strewn with many possibilities for
    power
    > and abuse of power, also prone to abuse of self and self-delusion?
    > Doesn't it focus unnecessarily on methods of control rather than
    > methods of communion? Would it not be simpler to give up the power
    > and focus on experiencing the Divine, with paths like Buddhism?

    so, my conclusion. (I think I touched on most of your questions
    above)

    The hermetic path is strewn with many possibilities for delusion and
    power. The soul mirror does help with that as a radical form of self
    honesty. The methods of control can be used as a method for
    communion. The learning of the aspects of the metaphysical through
    the will (magic) can help one better penetrate into the mystical.
    Experiencing the divine through paths like buddhism is actually a
    complex issue. The traditional hinayanist focuses on enlightenment
    while the traditional mahayanist focuses on enlightenment and tries
    to get everyone else to enlightenment, because, if everything is
    connected, you cannot reach enlightenment fully since a part of you
    is left behind in the unenlightened tree. IIH, for me, appears to be
    a method to help the most people because you can use the magical to
    understand the mystical further through experience and teach others
    more effectively.

    Dont, laugh at this, but the way that I see the answer to your
    question is with two mental pictures. One of Buddhism and the other
    of Bardon's path set in IIH. The first picture is of the path set in
    IIH where it is a line set between two points in the void. The
    learning, if done properly gets one from one point to the other
    without a great amount of elucidation (deep vibration at certain
    points on the line that lead to difficult concepts of metaphysics,
    epistemology, ethics and so on). For IIH, you pass from one point to
    the other as a child, just learning without a deep penetration into
    the hardcore philosophy. When you are competent enough with IIH
    where you can answer questions yourself, and you most certainly will
    ask and answer them, the line begins to vibrate as you go deeper and
    deeper.

    Buddhism is the other line where you first start off with the ethics
    and delve into which is an automatic vibration on the line that you
    penetrate deeply. There is an automatic vibration on the line that
    happens when you first touch it as opposed to bardon's system where
    you learn the laywork and then penetrate deeper into the line and
    make it vibrate. Hopefully this makes sense, I tried to make it as
    tangeable as possible from the synesthetic crap it was before. eeesh!

    >
    > I hope that no one takes offense at my questions, they are posed in
    a
    > spirit of honest inquiry.
    >
    >
    > Thanks,
    > David

    I am glad that you are asking questions like this. At least you are
    swimming in a sea of people doing backfloats. No matter what you do,
    if it is to pursue buddhism, that you would keep a copy of IIH with
    you just to refer to as it is a wonderful resource in the Buddhist
    philosophy. I am sure you will see complimentary ideas if you do
    pursue buddhism.

    ~relax and breath~
    Louis de Sully

    ~~~~~checking on the drunk outside to make sure he isnt hurt~~~~

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