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# Re: Formal Evocation vs. Mental Wandering

#### Message 01297 of 3835

- To: BardonPraxis@yahoogroups.com
- Subject: Re: Formal Evocation vs. Mental Wandering
- From: "peter_reist" <peter_reist@...>
- Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:06:26 -0000
- In-reply-to: <bha1o8+kqo9@eGroups.com>
- User-agent: eGroups-EW/0.82

    NKKA,

    No offence is taken. Personally, at this point in my training I find
    it rather hard to take offence even when an offence is ment.

    However, I haven't exctly completed step 8. My own progress with
    regards to Hermetics and Kabbalah didn't exactly follow the typical
    line of progression as I started with the basic work of KTQ when I
    was working on step 4 in IIH. At which point divine providence did
    everything but throw the kitchen sink at me to start doing some more
    advanced work of kabbalah.

    Once I started to do this work, especially the elemental accumulation
    within the four elemental regions, in addiiton to the fire pole of
    KTQ, my perception of the world exploded and expanded to the edge of
    the universe and my progress went into overdrive. And I have
    progressed formally through to the work of step 6 in IIH.

    All that being said, I have to say that yes, I can find the answer
    myself through a variety of mediums: via contact with my great
    guardian genious, by contemplating the question at hand and switching
    back and forth between VOM and OP, uttering the cosmic letter 'E' to
    induce a trance that leads to a revalationg upon one matter or
    another.

    Now if I'm able to find the answer to my question on my own, then why
    do I bother asking these questions to Rawn? For a variety of reasons,
    ranging from the fact that it is in my nature to question everything,
    my own conclusions especially, the fact that occasionally my greater
    guardian genious is not overly forthcoming with providing answers to
    certian questions, the fact that it's easier to bug Rawn than my
    greater guardian genious with questions, and the fact that this
    bantering back and forth between Rawn and I provides food for thought
    for other scholars working upon the path that they would not if I
    didn't ask these questions.

    On some level, what the conversations that Rawn and I have been
    having are a lot like two scholars of English literature talking
    about some obscure, minor character in one of Shakespeare's plays.
    The main difference between Rawn and I is that I just have my general
    B.A. whereas Rawn has a Ph.D. and the experience of Northorpe Frye,
    one of the great English scholars of the last century. While we both
    have an understanding of the answer to the question (though my
    understanding is rather shakey at times. I mean, sure, I can do the
    work of getting in contact with a spirit, merging with it's
    consciousness, condensing the light down to a certian density that
    would provide a sutible atmosphere for the spirit and so forth. But
    that doesn't necessarily mean that I know why I'm able to do this
    all, nor how I manage to do it. Strange as that may seem.) the
    perspective that both of us are coming from are radically different
    in some places, and quite close in others. As such, by conversing
    with each other we are garnering from the different perspective and
    experiences of another.

    Also, actually being able to put these rather complex issues down
    into a written format is quite difficult due to the fact that these
    things usually need to be experienced directly through the direct
    perception of essential meaning. This forces me to deal with the
    direct perception of essential meaning to depen my understanding of
    the topic in such a manner that I can express it in a written format.
    Which is something that I have found quite benificial to my own
    practice.

    Also, I know all too well that Rawn also believes that it is very
    rare that questions of an advanced nature will be posed after the
    scholar has truely gotten past the work of step 4 due to the fact
    that by that point they have developed some of the most basic tools
    for further progression along the hermetic path. The ability to
    puzzle out any question that is confusing them being one of the
    primary ones.

    I also know all too well that there is a limit to what Rawn is
    willing to talk about in public or in private with regards to
    Hermetics, Kabbalah, or evocation. If I cross that line, I know that
    Rawn will respond by saying, in a far more tactful manner, "Bugger
    off and figure it out for yourself." :)

    Love and Live well,
    Peter Reist

    --- In BardonPraxis@yahoogroups.com, "magesmail" <magesmail@y...>
    wrote:
    > Hello.
    > First of all , let me state that I am NOT trying to offend anyone.
    Iam
    > just curious . But wouldn't a hermetic magician who has finished
    step
    > 8 (which peter seems to have, since he mentions elsewhere that he
    has
    > started kabbala work) be able to answer such questions by a process
    of
    > intution /mental wandering ? again PLEASE don't be offended . NO
    > offense meant .
    > I am enjoying this discussion as much as anyone else here .
    > Regds, NKKA
    >
    >
    > --- In BardonPraxis@yahoogroups.com, "peter_reist"
    <peter_reist@y...>
    > wrote:
    > > Dear Rawn,
    > >
    > > >>>The ceremonial regalia is like training wheels on a bicycle.
    They
    > > serve to support the magician's focus and their will as they
    learn
    > > the Art of evocation. Eventually, they become unnecessary.<<<
    > >
    > > Then, of course, the question becomes: does the initiate who has
    > > completed step eight really need such training wheels?
    > >
    > > Also, why does Bardon not talk about the invocation of a spirit
    into
    > > the structure of the mental body? While such a working would be
    > > potentially dangerous for the untrained initiate, for the trained
    > > magician couldn't it be something more along the lines of what
    Bardon
    > > talked about when he mentioned about pnuma transference at the
    end of
    > > Step 4?
    > >
    > > Love and Live well,
    > > Peter Reist

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- References:
  - Re: Formal Evocation vs. Mental Wandering
    - From: "magesmail" <magesmail@...>

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