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# Re: Real vs. imagined communication

#### Message 02318 of 3835

- To: BardonPraxis@yahoogroups.com
- Subject: Re: [BardonPraxis] Real vs. imagined communication
- From: "Simon Proteus" <SimonProteus@...>
- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:15:47 -0800
- Bcc:

`Hello,
Although this thread seems to be coming to a close I wanted to clarify my statements.`
`First: I am in no way saying "objectivity verses subjectivity does not matter", what I am saying is that the question itself doesn't matter. Only experience matters. Many scholars have pointed out that Hermetics is based almost entirely upon gnostic principles. One resource I found actually referred to it as a form of gnosticism. One should draw their own conclusions. To sit and ponder and then pontificate is not the point.`
`Second: Rawn. I agree completely that the degree to which an individual expresses divinity either in magickal work or in daily life is directly correlated to their own level of spiritual awareness. If I implied otherwise then shame on me. For instance, I am in no way saying that because I can concieve of a talking, pink bunny in the corner, that one is in fact in said corner. I AM saying that the awakened imagination is a far more "real" and profound tool that most people, including those who study the occult in general, and Hermetics specifically give it credit for.`
`Third: I do believe it is entirely possible that objective otherworldly beings exist. M-theory and quantum mechanics state explicitly that the existence of other dimensions is not only possible, but probable. Science has again and again lent credibility to occult theory. I find it to be incredibly plausible that communications with beings existing in these dimensions is possible. Some people may feel a degree of impatience with my connecting science and the occult, but I consider this relationship to be ultimately unavoidable. In the end I simply feel no compulsion to discuss whether I, you, or the guy working at the Quickie-Mart have had a discussion with spiritual beings, not because I feel they do not exist, but because such communications will be interpreted through our own unique set of lenses.`
`To conclude: My point to Daniel was not that objectivity vs. subjectivity is meaningless. In my daily job I work directly and intimately with hard science on a daily basis and am very much a proponent of careful and accurate thinking (for application in the work-a-day world, as well as the spiritual). What I did mean to communicate is that there will be no "objective" evidence that one can share to communicate the objective reality of spiritual beings. For those who have ever seen or participated in an evocation there are no angels hanging around for tea afterwards waiting to hang out with your friends to verify their existence, elementals buffing your floor and offering to do the same for the particle physicist down the street or faeries perfecting the curves of your body all on their onesies. There is no evidence, and that is unequivically what the determination of objectivity must be based upon. When a hermetic says "objective", they do not mean "I have objective evidence that such and so exists outside of me"--it is therefore not objective by any measure, what they mean is "I have knowledge that such and so exists outside of me"--having knowledge of something is not a determination of objectivity.`
`Although these beings cannot be determined by another to be an objective being, does not mean that it does not contain the quality of objectivity, it simply means that it must be described in subjective terms. Confusing? Of course it is, and THAT was my point to Daniel, as badly worded as it clearly was.`

    Warm Regards,
    Simon

`_________________________________________________________________
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